Eugene Forsey Liberal

Tuesday, January 26, 2010

NDP Not Getting Message From CAPP, Topp, etc.?

Essential Topp advice on Harper vs. Democracy: "new opportunity for NDP if they can offer a better alternative WITHOUT OVERPLAYING THEIR HAND" (my bold). Any careful reader will know how unwilling Topp is to even hint at criticising NDP normally, so this was most important part, which he was trying to get across to Dippers. I also worried about this, given NDP's recent past, and danger it posed to CAPP & everyone. It was what infuriated CAPP folk & led to Shilo Davis quitting NDP. But somehow, the message doesn't seem to be getting through. Topp, CAPP, Davis, doesn't matter who warns them, too many Dippers can't/won't see forest for the trees. what does it take, Layton & Broadbent themselves? This is all inspired by post by a prominent NDP blogger, who also appears in the National Post, and just penned what may be the stupidest or the most dishonest post I have ever read. It moved me to comment on his blog, it was so bad, in so many ways. I reproduce my comment below. And I hope this post, in which I have tried to distinguish responsible Dippers from the irresponsible, and the generous tone of my previous post or this one will help convince paranoid Dippers that I, Liberals, Greens, Bloc, non-partisans & CAPP do not act out of some evil desire to do them in, and that they should have the goodness & good sense to see the big picture and do the right thing. I know many will deplore reactions such as that of the Dipper blogger I noted, and are not behaving in this way. I hope they will be able to prevail on their more immature colleagues to do likewise.

COMMENT REPRODUCED
I have read you enough to have thought you knew something of these matters and were not blindly partisan. But this post, which I first saw at the National Post, is a terrible dispointment, It is possible that you honestly don't understand that Ignatieff's proposals are stricter than the NDP's, since there would be limits on even a majority government (delay, debate, committees running, etc.) rather than the NDP's all or nothing approach. In addition to these limits, placed in the Standing Orders (and here I would have assumed you understood the importance of that, although, judging from this post, perhaps not), would be a requirement to get House agreement to break them so as to prorogue without respecting one or more of them. This combination doesn't just make these limits more stringent on minority governments than the NDP's worthwhile initial proposal, they impose limits on majority governments as well, that would, as Standing Orders, be extremely hard to break. This proposal subjugates minority governments more than the NDP's, and limits majorities, which the NDP didn't think through. Since this is perfectly obvious to any fair-minded unbiased observer, you might have followed the NDP's official first reactioon, and welcomed them as a basis for discussion. That you did not indicates that you are either so lost to partisan passions as to be incapable of fair judgement, or too deliberately ignorant to understand. If it is an honest matter of ignorance, and you wrote such a dyspeptic post not because you are rabid but because didn't know what you didn't know, in which there is no shame, then you should read my post and the two links embedded within, to educate yourself.

But if you knew Iggy's proposal was better, on its merits, and still wrote such a screed, then that is truly shameful, and counterproductive to the cause of all good faith democrats. And I must admit, that since we are in a very sensitive period of trying to keep CAPP together and move forward with the democracy movement, and since Shilo Davis & CAPP organisers have stated how sickened they were by NDP attempts to hijack rallies for partisan purposes, and since you chose to have this piece of misplaced anti-Iggy furor as your Nat Post signature this week, where it plays into the hands of the anti-CAPPers by attacking the leader of their principal opposition, incites divisions among pro-democrats, and does so in the most public forum available to you, it is hard to see how this was honest ignorance and not vile unfounded demagoguery, designed to undermine CAPP, worthy of Harper. Maybe not. Maybe you are just another useful idiot of the Right, another of its objective allies. But having skimmed some of your previous writings, that's hard to believe. I have been a much more bitter critic of Iggy than you, for longer, but fair is fair: he done good, and better than NDP. You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for doing the worst possible thing at the worst possible moment.

16 Comments:

  • At 8:12 PM, Blogger Brian G. Rice said…

    Great Post. I'm not sure if you say my post on this subect or not: http://www.processingpolitics.ca/2010/01/ndps-version-of-non-partisan-isnt.html, but I raise some of these same issues. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

     
  • At 9:20 PM, Blogger Skinny Dipper said…

    Perhaps the Liberal prorogation proposal is better than the NDP's. You know? I'm old enough to remember promises of fair nominations, free votes, recalling MP's, and other crap that I don't believe that if either Ignatieff (or Layton) became the Prime Minister that he would implement his prorogation proposal as is. The cynic is alive in me. I don't give a crap about a new prorogation law. What I want are substantial changes to Canada's so-called democracy.

    I want a governor-general/president to either be elected by Canadians or selected by parliament.

    I want officers of parliament to be approved by parliamentarians, not just the PM or individual cabinet ministers.

    I want a fair voting system through some form of proportional representation.

    I want the Senate to either be diretly elected by the people or abolished.

    I want a Supreme Court whose members are at least chosen by parliament.

    I want a real democracy--not a façade.

     
  • At 9:22 PM, Blogger Skinny Dipper said…

    "to either be"

    Excuse my split infinitive.

     
  • At 9:29 PM, Blogger leftdog said…

    This comment has been removed by the author.

     
  • At 9:38 PM, Blogger leftdog said…

    P.S. ... let's please NOT make the same mistakes that the American Left has made.

     
  • At 9:58 PM, Blogger leftdog said…

    P.P.S The Regina Rally went off just fine as a tri-party co-operative event. The Libs - Greens - NDP worked well together and the nonsense that Shilo was flipping out about is not even remotely evident.

    I spoke to Ralph Goodale after the event and he had nothing but praise for how well things went!

    Someone who jumps ship so easily and on such flimsy pretense, from the New Dems to another party is, I suspect, not being overly honest with us.

     
  • At 10:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To be fair Shiloh said she'd come back, just not yet, she's still too peeved, nothing about jumping ship. This sort of huge disappointment happens all the time with people in their own parties. They get over it.

    I can't believe we don't have all the same goal here, which is desperately seeking fair electoral democracy for all and kicking the Con bums out. I despair.

     
  • At 10:14 PM, Blogger leftdog said…

    Which is my point exactly .. because we can all degenerate into who is more at fault for trying to score partisan points for their own benefit from CAPP

     
  • At 10:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    CAPP is finished for me.
    Did you see this title?
    "NDP members, you are cheaters and are dishonest, but let's us Liberals and you lying NDP'ers work together."
    http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=260348091419&topic=14107

    Totally over the top and unfair. Gawd you'd think this sort of thing hasn't happened a hundred times since l979.

     
  • At 11:09 PM, Blogger Eugene Forsey Liberal said…

    In response to all comments: Whatever reforms you desire, they are not going to happen through normal partisan point-scoring politics. This is a unique moment. Are you up to it?

    And so you know I'm not messing around, here's what I told bgrice, liberal:

    I think the issue of who is the master, people through parliament, or a an arbitrary executive, still exists. That is not a partisan issue. I disagree with going back to our corners rhetoric. Go to electionnightincanada.com. Read coyne's post "the short parliament". this is much bigger than any party. This is about democracy. The NDP have trouble controlling their membership. Layton often sets a bad example. But I think their inner circle, people like Topp, get the issues at stake and arer trying as hard as they can to keep people from cheating, from going all partisan. I have tried very hard to be as understanding as I could. But what alarmed me about Dawg's post is that given the Post has made him the NDP star, I worry there is some division in the NDP leadership over this, and the collateral damage will be CAPP and the non-partisan democracy movement. I don't think you, Grice, should revert to partisan ways on this Grice. You should continue to try to control yourself and build a big non-partisan pro-democracy tent, through CAPP. It's hard but it's the right thing to do. And Dippers like Dawg should do likewise. The last thing we need is to go back to our corners. We need to meet in the middle and join to fight for our democracy. And that requires putting our country before our party, as Dion used to say when fighting in QC in the 1990s, and making alliances with Charest. Don't be small - Think big. Fight for democracy first, our parties second.

     
  • At 11:25 PM, Blogger leftdog said…

    You might 'talk' it but you do not 'walk' it ... you still had to get a few shots in at the NDP in that last little bit ... "The NDP have trouble controlling their membership. Layton often sets a bad example."

    You simply cannot help yourself. It is knee jerk partisanship and you aren't even aware that you are doing it.

     
  • At 11:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Liberal Party members finally get involved in activism and are outraged that people of all political organizations take their party placards on the march.

    Those who wanted a "non-partisan" march were wishing that pigs flied. You can't control who will come on these marches and what sort of placards they'll bring or if they'll march in contingents or so on.

    The organizers of the rallies who allowed NDP and Liberal speakers got it right to prevent the rallies from getting hijacked.

    This is all just Liberals griping at the NDP.

     
  • At 11:49 PM, Blogger Eugene Forsey Liberal said…

    You're right, I should have said, "as compared to Blaikie, or responsible past leaders like McDonough, McLaughlin, Broadbent, Lewis & Douglas, Layton often sets a bad example". Thanks for the correction. As for controlling their membership, Dippers on the one hand can't delight in the rambunctious chaotic diversity of their caucus, as they like to protray it, although Dipper Hill staff have other words for it, and on the other hand deny this is so.

     
  • At 12:03 AM, Blogger wilson said…

    Join me,
    said the spider to the fly.

    Yah know Eugene, the GG gives the encumbant First Minister, PM Harper,
    first crack at forming a majority.

    So if you coalitionists do a real good job selling the Dippers as a cool partner in a coalition govt.......Jack should keep his powder dry,
    Iffy already burned him once.

     
  • At 1:15 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The Greens are closer anyway, why not swallow them? And truth be told Eugene, as much as I adore your 'the kids are all right' thingie, it isn't resonating. Partisanship should die, because without that, Canada does. It's a choice.

     
  • At 4:29 AM, Blogger Brian G. Rice said…

    Eugene Forsey Liberal: I turned my repsonse into a blog entry. It got long. You can find it here: http://www.processingpolitics.ca/2010/01/is-partisanship-bad-thing.html.

     

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